The Recovered Life Show

Staci Danford (00:00):
The two reasons people shop. These are the two signs that you are a shopping addict is that you are purchasing things regardless of need or means you don't need it at all, but you get it anyway. You and you'll justify it in your right it's on sale, or, oh my gosh, they won't make this anymore. Oh my gosh. This is the latest version of the Prada bag I've got, I've got to spend 10 grand on it. They're not going to make this one next year, whatever it is, you will justify that you don't need it. Then there are people who shop beyond their means and they know they don't have the same amount of money to purchase this item, but they get it anyway and they hide it. So one of them is like really extravagant. And does it, even though they don't need it, the other one buys it knowing they can't afford it and then they'll hide it. Or they'll, you know, I have clients and friends who will buy things and don't tell my husband, or they'll keep it in the trunk until their husband goes to work and they go get all the things out that is a clear sign. If you are hiding things, there's probably either a problem in your relationship when there's a problem with your spending.

Closing (01:10):
You're listening to the recovered life show the show that helps people in recovery live their best recovered lives. And here is your host, Damon. Frank

Damon Frank (01:20):
We'll come back to the recovered life show. I am joined today by Stacy Danford, recovered contributor, educational neuroscientist, and recovery coach. How you doing today, Stacy? I'm wonderful.

Staci Danford (01:32):
How are you?

Damon Frank (01:33):
I am so great and excited to talk with you. Glad to have you on this episode, we're talking about something. That's going to be fun. Look right now, we're going into the holidays. We're in the holidays really right. Black Friday is, is here and everybody is shopping. And you have shared your story about shopping addiction and it's been it's, it's such an amazing story. So I wanted to do an episode all about shopping a shopping addiction. And is it a thing like people questioned, like what? You can have a shopping addiction and you're here to tell me that you absolutely can.

Staci Danford (02:11):
Yes, you absolutely can. It is actually now been registered as one of the addictions. It's in the same category of addictions as sexual addictions, internet addictions, gambling, and those types of things, excessive gaming. It's one of those that category of addiction, sometimes it's called CBB or compulsive buying behavior or CBD compulsive buying disorder, but it actually affects over 18 million people in the United States. It is a real thing.

Damon Frank (02:43):
You know, I think when, when I first heard about this, I thought, well, you know, is this really does this really affect a lot of people? And as I started asking people just randomly, Hey, you ever heard of shopping addiction? Have you ever suffered from shopping addiction? An overwhelming amount of people responded back to me that not only had they heard about it, but they actually had gone through it themselves and had suffered from it and had either really big emotional ramifications or actually physical debt ramifications from it. I know your story is interesting because you kind of discovered that you were quote overshopping and kind of an unusual way, and you being an educational neuroscientist and all about, you know, the brain, you know, I'd love to hear more about your journey, about how you discovered the issue that you had with this.

Staci Danford (03:37):
It has been absolutely a long journey for sure, because I've been married many times and I have, as I, you know, approach my newer version of myself, I look back for patterns and really, and truly that's what neuroscience teaches people is to look for patterns. And I realized this pattern of shopping had followed me through the marriages, through the towns, through the jobs. If you have something that's followed you from place to place with different people, different aspects, most likely it is a pattern that your brain is looking for. So it was really funny the way that I finally uncovered it was because I had been keeping a trigger journal and I was looking for things that really heightened my emotions either positively or negatively. And I found that both were making me want to go shop. If I was really happy, I wanted to go shop.

Staci Danford (04:36):
Or if I was really sad, frustrated, angry, I also wanted to go shop. And I started asking myself, what is that? What is happening to my brain? That this is my outlet. This makes me feel better. And that's what any addiction does is make you feel better. And your brain locks in that pattern as a relief mechanism, this will make you feel better, whether it's drinking, shopping, gambling, whatever it is, it makes you feel better. Or if you're already high happy, it'll make you feel even better than to it's making you feel better. So the way that I uncovered it was a little bit of a surprise to me because I didn't notice that it was happening for happiness and sadness, because you think like you're an addict when you do things to escape from the terrible parts of life or whatever, that's not true. And that's not backed by research the same way people want to drink when they're having fun at a party, they're not just escaping. So if you follow the emotional triggers, that's where you can discover is this a part of my brains patterning for dealing with emotions and making me feel better. And it absolutely was

Damon Frank (05:56):
Know. And you've helped so many people by sharing your story. And I know that you, you know, I was in a clubhouse room with you a few weeks ago, and you were, you know, sharing your experience with us and the discovery that you had found this pattern and kind of, and I'd love for you to speak about what typically is behind that pattern. Cause usually there's emotions, there's things that are going on. Like most people, um, don't just have issues with addict addiction. There's usually things behind it. Some sort of thought trauma experience, emotion that's and that's what's really going on. And then they're just, you know, acting out through the addiction, but really the underlining issue. There's something that's going on. What's going on a lot of times with people who are overspending and overshopping,

Staci Danford (06:50):
I would say for sure, there is, I call it your trunk trauma. So we all have a deep core trauma. And then we all have like the branches that go out. And sometimes we don't notice the branches because we see the leaves, but rarely do we notice the trunk, the core of the trauma in our brain. So my, as a traced, all these triggers and I found my patterns, I realized that my core trunk trauma was that I was not important. I was unimportant and I was invisible. And when I went shopping, oh my gosh, I was so important. And I was very visible. I was the girl that could hand them the card and they had to give me everything I bought. They had no idea if I had money in the account, they didn't care. And the more I spent, the more visible I got and the more important I felt that I really, truly, I had no idea that mascara or new tennis shoes had anything to do with my core trauma that I felt unimportant and invisible.

Staci Danford (07:55):
And really that is the most powerful thing you can ever do is understand your brain's patterns and your brain's core trauma, because shopping can kind of give you a multiple things. So there are people that have shopping addictions that just look for the bargain, oh, they're the bargain shoppers and the couponers. And they're doing all the things or they're people who are on the opposite end that get very extravagant. You know, they buy $30,000 light fixtures or, you know, really fancy cars. Both of them, however, are filling a void of some core issue. There's no reason that, you know, people should think less of the bargain shopper than they do of the extravagant shopper. This one just looks better, but say, let's say the bargain shopper and you know, they're like an excessive couponer and they're really doing all the things, but they're really trying to prove to you their value.

Staci Danford (08:51):
Look how important I am. Look how much money I saved. Really what they're saying is, look at me, look at me. I am proving to you how good I am and when you see how good I am, then I can believe my own goodness. So the opposite is true on the extravagant person. They're already feeling their goodness, but they want to show you how much they're worth, because that way the extravagance adds value to them. And if you can see, I can lay down 30 grand for a light fixture. Oh, you'll see my value. So it's really tricky how the brain works, but there is always an underlying pattern. It's not about the item you purchased. It's not about the coupon or it's not about the 30 K fixture. It's really about the reason underneath that you're doing what you're doing.

Damon Frank (09:44):
And you know, I guess also what you're saying is too, is that the, just like every other addiction going forward with that $30,000 purchase, isn't going to fix you, right? It, at the end of the day, you have the same let down, uh, you know, that you do with any other addiction and whether it be drugs, alcohol sex, you're just, you're at the end of the day, the person who's addicted to shopping, isn't really getting the long-term relief. Are they?

Staci Danford (10:11):
No, they're not. And they're actually, again, they're feeling the void. And what happens when you got your worst from throwing down that 30 K is your brain said, oh, do that again. Look how great that felt. Same way with the lady and the coupons. And she's like, look how good that felt your brain is responding to patterns. And that pattern of giving you the value that pattern of making people feel like you're good enough is locking in your brain as a way to respond. And one is never enough and a hundred isn't either. You're going to keep going after that pattern over and over and over until you dig it up other routes.

Damon Frank (10:53):
Well, what I love about your approach is that you bring science to addiction, right? And you were talking about, uh, just a little bit ago about a dopamine hit. And I was shocked when I did some research on this, about how big of a dopamine hit that you get. And I think the, the first thought, when people think shopping addiction, they say, well, you know, it's not like heroin. It's not like alcohol. It's not, it's, it's not really a hard addiction, but that's not true. Your brain, the way your brain sees this. And, and what you feel inexperienced with that dopamine hit is really big, right?

Staci Danford (11:30):
Oh, it's absolutely true because the dopamine it's one of the, you know, it's a feel good chemical. Yes. It's one of the happy chemicals, but it's also very addicted to addiction because you get the reward and your brain loves the reward. It activates an area of your brain that sets these chemicals off and makes you feel good. Well, of course, when you feel good, your brain locks that pattern to remind you how you can feel good next time. And so you just keep doing the same thing. But dopamine is one of the chemicals that works very quickly in the brain, but it wears off very quickly in the brain. And that is the trick because it makes you want to do it again. You lost that dopamine level. So you got to get it back. You got to buy something else. You got to do one more thing. You got to order online. Those online nighttime shoppers are really some of the most hidden addicts because they never go out in public, but they've got thousands of dollars on their card. It doesn't matter where you get your dopamine. You can be in the bed ordering online, but you're still getting the dopamine hit the same way you are. If you walk into a store and throw down a credit card.

Damon Frank (12:44):
Yeah. And I think people underestimate that, right. That rush. And, and that, then that creates the pattern that you're talking about, right. That creates that pattern that you get used to that rush, that dopamine hit. And you just go after it all the time. Now I have to ask you this. So what is the solution here? Right? I mean, obviously with drugs and alcohol, you can use abstinence, right? So the, the first step typically is to stop is to identify, Hey, there's a problem. I'm willing to change it. And then to stop actually doing that, you can't really stop buying things in today's world, right? Like that's the person that like, how are you going to, how are you going to do that? So what are, what are some of the signs Stacey, that people might have a shopping addiction. And then really my bigger question here is what can you do about this?

Staci Danford (13:37):
Okay. That would say, they're the two reasons people shop. These are the two signs that you are a shopping addict is that you are purchasing things regardless of need or means you don't need it at all, but you get it anyway. You and you'll justify it in your brain. It's on sale or, oh my gosh, they won't make this anymore. Oh my gosh, this is the latest version of the product bag I've got, I've got to spend 10 grand on it. They're not going to make this one next year, whatever it is, you will justify, but you don't need it. Then there are people who shop beyond their means and they know they don't have the same amount of money to purchase this item, but they get it anyway and they hide it. So one of them is like really extravagant. And does it, even though they don't need it, the other one buys it, knowing they can't afford it.

Staci Danford (14:27):
And then they'll hide it. Or they'll, you know, Lee, I have clients and friends who will buy things and don't tell my husband, or they'll keep it in the trunk until their husband goes to work. And then they go get all the things out that is a clear sign. If you are hiding things, there's probably either a problem in your relationship or there's a problem with your spending. So those are the two key components you're making purchases regardless of need or means. So then what do you do about that? Like, because you, like you said, you do have to keep shopping and there are people that try to, you know, I don't ever go into target again, or I'm never going into the mall. Well, guess what? You're going to the grocery store and they've got little stuff in there. They've got it right there by the front.

Staci Danford (15:10):
That's built for addicts. Where do they put their cute stuff at the checkout counter? Oh, look, I'll get this. I'll get the as seen on TV section is like the worst. They put that there for the addicts because that's the easy grabbable stuff. So you cannot remove yourself from shopping. Like maybe you can with drugs or alcohol, you've got to keep purchasing items. So one of the best things that you can do, that's super easy is shop with a list only. And when I first started this, oh my gosh, it was so hard because I was a binge chopper and I didn't need anything. And people would ask me, oh, what are you going to get? And I'm like, I don't know if it's going to go look, see what I need, but it need anything. So again, need and means I was just going in to get stuff.

Staci Danford (15:56):
And I wanted to look around bad signs. You're not looking around, make a list and buy only the items on your list. So then I did that for quite a while, but then I would see things that I was like, I really want that. So then I gave myself another caveat that said, if you go home and you tell somebody about it and you still want it tomorrow, then I'll let you have permission to go get it. I bet one out of a hundred times, did I actually go back and get it? Because what compulsive shoppers do are buy things in the moment. It's the spontaneity of it. It's the rush of that dopamine. Guess what? You don't get that dopamine rush when you go home and you get your other credit card and then you drive back. You're like, man, I didn't really want those shoes.

Staci Danford (16:49):
And it's about the moment that feels that void for you, that you do it. So then people that shop on internet shopping, that that's a hard one because you know, it's not necessarily that you're going to come back and get it as right there on your phone. So I tell those people, you can only purchase with a friend. You have to have someone sit beside you, but you still need your list and you don't get to do like go random clicking. You still have to use the list method, but you can't go back and get it. You need to have somebody sitting there with you. You need a buddy because it's just as addictive and thousands of dollars later, you're going to wish you would have done something. I can tell you from personal experience, I have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, not hundreds, not thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars, trying to fill a void and be important. And half of the stuff, if not three quarters of it ended up getting donated to Goodwill. It wasn't about the item. It was about the need. It was fulfilling.

Damon Frank (17:52):
Yeah. And I think anyone that has an addiction issue at the end of the day, they realize that you you've come to a point where people, places and things aren't going to save me. It's not going to, it's not really ultimately going to solve the issue. Right? And I know you work with you. You've worked with so many people that have shopping addiction and really try to lead them down a path to help them change their thinking. Um, if you're looking at the success rate with this, if somebody is listening to this and go, man, I'm in trouble, I have a ton of credit card debt. I'm like what you said there you're hiding packages. You are all these feelings that you've brought up, they're experiencing. Um, what is the success rate and what is the hope that you can give people that you actually can change those patterns and the shopping addiction?

Staci Danford (18:47):
Oh, I love that. I don't know the exact percentage of success rate, but I can tell you that hiding is not healing. And if you, you could actually cut up your credit cards. That's not healing either. And that's what I love about recovered life and recovery is you're recovering. You're healing. The issue that's, what's important because you can cut your credit card up, but guess what? It'll bubble back up. The issue of feeling important or feeling worthy, whatever your specific reason you're shopping. It's still there. It's still there, whether you're hiding in the attic until your husband leaves or not. So really the most important piece of being successful with any addiction, but especially with shopping is understanding what is your core? What is the reason that you're doing it? So for me, mine was I wanted to feel invisible and important. Oh, I can do that a million healthy ways without going to the store. I don't need to buy things to be important, but I didn't know that because I hadn't put the pieces together and I didn't understand why I was doing it. I was looking at the leaves and I was looking at you made me mad. I just want to feel better. Or I'm feeling so down today, I just want a little reward and you can justify all those things. But if you don't dig down to get the branch to get the root, you will never really be healed.

Damon Frank (20:13):
Stacy, Dan for this has been a great episode and I know it's going to help a lot of people, especially now because we're in the holiday season. And it, it seems to me that it's being marketed, get the deal black Friday, you got to do it. Now. It, you know, and the alerts, the emails, the text messages, it just feels like everything is coming at us to overspend. And you know, if you have problems with that, if that's an issue, this is a really super dangerous time. One of the things that I just, I love about you is that you are the handout, a queen, but you make really great handouts that you provide for free. And you said that you were going to make one regarding this, uh, for all the people that are on recovered life, uh, to help identify, uh, what's going on with a potential shopping addiction and kind of some things that you can do about it. Can you explain that a little bit?

Staci Danford (21:11):
Yes. I think that a workbook is always just one of the best tools you can do because it gives your brain. Anytime you're filling out a worksheet, you're doing the work and action alters your brain functionality. So you can't think your way into new thinking. You have to act your way into new thinking. And the act of writing things out in a workbook gives you that action, but it also gives you a plan. And if you have a plan going into the holiday season and you have a specific budget or you have, oh my gosh, we're going to buy books this year. We're not going to buy random stuff so everybody can have a 12 presence. Then you can go in with a much higher likelihood of staying within your boundaries instead of just going off and going crazy. So I love to put little worksheets together cause that's how my brain comprehends and, and sees patterns. And I will give you all the little details on the underlying issues, what they might be and the some easy solutions to help you in your own addiction.

Damon Frank (22:15):
We are going to make that available for everybody for free on recovered life. So all you have to do is go to recovered life and you can join a hundred percent for free, and we're going to make that available for everyone. Stacey Danford. Thanks so much for coming on the show today.

Staci Danford (22:29):
Thank you for having me

Closing (22:32):
Keep the conversation going. Join recovered life. A community of like-minded people who are looking to live their best recovered lives. Membership is free and you can apply@recoveredlife.us.