The Recovered Life Show

Kristina Dennis (00:00):
It's this fear and trying to control how everybody else feels so that you'll stay safe. Once you no longer need them to be who they, who you needed them to be. And you can take care of yourself, you're in the safest place that you can imagine, then it doesn't really matter. They might as well be telling you that you're purple or right. That's how, how real it really is.

Announcer (00:25):
You're listening to the recovered life show the show that helps people in recovery live their best recovered lives. And here is your host, Damon, Frank,

Damon Frank (00:36):
Welcome back to the recovered life show. I am pleased to be joined today by covered life contributor and codependency and recovery expert. Christina, Dennis, how you doing Christina?

Kristina Dennis (00:48):
I'm great. How are you doing today? Damon?

Damon Frank (00:50):
I am doing great. And we are in December. And guess what? Almost the end of the year. And of course the biggest family time of the year, right? December. It's where you meet

Kristina Dennis (01:02):
With everybody. Absolutely. Regardless of, of what you celebrate this time of year in the entire world and especially in the, the United States, this is the go time for family. That's the expectation that everybody has.

Damon Frank (01:16):
Right. And you're meeting with people and I know people probably, uh, maybe you're watching this because they like the title and it is a little shocking, but it's really direct, right? Toxic family members. What do you do? Absolutely. What do you do? Because everybody's had this situation where they have a member of their family or a close friend who they love, but is just toxic and now you might be in recovery and , you have to go to an event with them and you're just thrown into the mix. Right? What do you, what do you do, Christina? Well,

Kristina Dennis (01:49):
Don't let yourself be just thrown into the mix. Understand that this person has probably not been in a place of growth in the last 30 days. Like you have been, so make sure that you prepare yourself. That's the first thing. Um, I tell people get centered, uh, have a call with somebody that you know, is in your corner, have some, some kind of, uh, you know, comments, ready, questions ready so that you can play offense and not defense pray, eat. Well. I know that the holidays have a lot to do with the food preparation, but it sounds crazy. Drink water, eat protein and meditate. Before you go, you have to prepare when you're walking into that, these families have not been where we've been. And I can tell you from my own experience, just because I decided to get into recovery and sober 25, 5 years ago, did not mean that anybody else had looked at any of their behavior or even understood it. So get ready. That's my first piece of advice

Damon Frank (02:53):
For sure. I, I love that advice because you know, we talk a lot about in recovery about how our perception of life has changed. How, how things have changed. We used to look at things one way and now we look at them another way. Right? Right. And I think with that comes the expectation that everybody's along for the ride, everybody's practicing and doing that. Absolutely. But we know that that's not the case. Right. And so when we come into a situation that with a toxic person, we can't really have the awareness that they're doing the deal as well.

Kristina Dennis (03:25):
No, in fact, probably you're going to shake things up a little bit. If that person needs to be in recovery. And generally most of us who are in recovery from an alcohol, uh, problem or addiction of some sort, we grew up in families that have, have the same kinds of problems. We, as representatives of the recovery community can sometimes be pulling their covers without even knowing it. Oh, you got sober. Who do you think you are? Oh, you're better than us. And I, I hope that's not the case, but if you do have that family, um, and there's, you know, combative discussion happening, I hope that you'll walk in with a more generous, uh, generous spirit and a little bit of centered and understanding that your, your existence is probably freaking them out. You know, one member gets sober, a family, the rest of the family has to make adjustments and change and they're not always ready for

Damon Frank (04:19):
It. You know? And that's the thing I think when, you know, when you make the decision to get sober, it's your decision. Right? Right. Even if the circumstances are bad and you feel like you have no choice, you're still somewhat saying, yes, I'm willing to do this. Right. Right. And, and as you stay in recovery longer and longer and longer, you're gonna, you're gonna interact with people who have not made that choice. Like we're saying, but also sometimes they're gunning for you. They're not in your corner. Right? Like, and I think, especially in early sobriety, that discernment, which you're so great at really explaining. And I was hoping that you could maybe give some tips to the people listening here about how to actually have discernment to really identify, Hey, this person's safe. This person's not so safe

Kristina Dennis (05:04):
For me. Right. Have a plan, have an action plan. Decide before you walk into the situation, how much you wanna discuss your sobriety, if at all decide exactly how much you wanna share about yourself. Just because there are family doesn't mean that they get a front row seat to our life. In fact, often they need to be demoted a little bit, or we need to make some distance. And I'm not saying walk in and announce that you are distancing yourself from the family. Either that holidays are not the time to start clearing up or cleaning up the history that you might have had with somebody. So you go in with a plan. This is what I'm going to talk about. The other tip that I always tell people, ask a lot of questions of your family about what's going on with them. If you go in with the service attitude, like I'm really gonna learn, you stay curious.

Kristina Dennis (05:55):
People like to talk about themselves. So if you don't want to answer a lot of questions, I suggest you start asking them and really be interested in your family members and what they have to say, take this experience as a whole new world and, and treat them as you would treat anybody when you're going out. You know, they're basically strangers. And so cases, let's be honest when you quit drinking, everybody changes a little bit because you've changed. So when you start interacting with them, be curious, be kind and ask them a lot of questions. They'll think it's probably the best conversation they've ever had. If they got to talk about themselves two thirds at the time,

Damon Frank (06:35):
You know, and one of the things that I've really learned, uh, from speaking with you and, and listening to your perspective about codependency mm-hmm and you being a codependency expert, you, you dive into these roles that people assign you within the family, right? So sometimes it's not that the person necessarily is gunning for you. They're toxic, just simp because they're playing a role in the family, right? And you are playing a role in the family, but yet your, your consciousness has changed. You're not the same person, but their, but the roles are still there.

Kristina Dennis (07:11):
What's important to remind yourself. You're not the same person because it, as it is so easy to slip back into those old roles. A lot of alcoholics, the golden Childs who, who became scapegoats and being scapegoat means that everything in that has happened is your fault. And they may still want you to play a little bit of that role. So if you think ahead of time, you understand that, you know, aunt Betty has her snarky attitude and uncle Joe gets a little too drunk. And you really think about how you're gonna interact with each one of these family members. Then you get to decide whether or not you want to play along, because remember it's a limited amount of time, or at least I'm gonna suggest to you make it a limited amount of time, especially if it's your first holiday sober. Um, that's a limited amount of time and it may not be worth you getting too invested.

Kristina Dennis (08:01):
A lot of times I tell people be either a gray rock, which is be the most boring version of yourself. If you have a narcisstic or toxic person coming after you answer in statements like you may be right. I don't know. Oh, I've never thought about that before. Use the most comments, uh, uh, the most diffusing comments you can and, and get away from it, or it may be the turn, the time for you to focus on what you do have to say that is accurate. So a lot of times with these family systems, we get very caught up in what somebody has said to us and the inaccuracy of what they're saying when the truth is, is we just need to respond in the most accurate way. If they say, do you remember when you used to do this? And oh yeah, you used to bar for you used to, you know, always ended up, you can say, yeah, that's right now. I really don't need to do that. Remember it matters mostly what you think of yourself during these holidays and how you handle yourself. And you can go in and, and be elegant and be responsive without giving everything away to them.

Damon Frank (09:07):
You know, I think what is, is complicated about, uh, toxic people and especially family members that might be toxic is that there's mixed emotions that are going on. So if anybody's listening to this and they might think, yeah, that's that person they're thinking of this person, right. That's toxic for them at the same time. They know that that person is kind of, they are toxic, but at the same time, they love that person. Right. And have a history with them, right? So it's this conflict thing that this battle that's going back and forth with. It's like, well, I really love this person. But at the same time, I really can't stand this person. Right. Is, is that normal? Because I know a lot of, I hear a lot of people in recovery say, you know what? Wow, like I, a guy told me the other day that he's like, wow, this family member that I have, I love him to death. But my rule is I only spend two days with them.

Kristina Dennis (09:57):
Right. And that's the most loving thing you can do is have that time limit that boundary. A lot of us co-dependence, we don't know how to set boundaries. We are raised in families that didn't allow for boundaries and guess what? They still don't know about their boundaries. They are not happy being who they are or playing the world that they have. So that's, I said at the beginning, be generous in your spirit toward them, have some compassion for them. And for yourself, be smart, have a plan of action. I work with people who want to do the work and go back and figure out the family of origin, um, kind of rules that they were given when they're growing up, that brought us of these codependent behaviors. And once you're able to do that, you can walk into these situations, you know, really understanding that it's about them and not you. And it's so much easier when you have those boundaries with yourself to be able to just kind of laugh something off of somebody saying it.

Damon Frank (10:55):
Yeah. I, I I'd love if you would, to elaborate a little bit, uh, Christina, for everybody, that's listening here. You talk about how you walk people through that. Mm-hmm . Can, can you describe that? What that journey looks like? Because sure. I, I know for me, like when you first discover that, Hey, certain relationships might be codependent or I'm acting in a codependent way, there's a little bit of a confusion about out like, Hey, you know, something's not right. You're working, you know, maybe you're going to a 12 step group or you're doing something right. But to actually walk through that path, where are you trying to go? Wh when you're walking through that path, wh what's the end goal?

Kristina Dennis (11:32):
Well, the, the definition of a codependent is, is being dependent on somebody else for your value, you period. That's like the short version, doing it to a detriment. And a lot of us who grow up in alcoholic homes or grow up in dysfunctional homes and deal with addiction are in a way codependent with everybody and everything. We need that outside validation. So when you're willing to go and heal those parts of you, the parts that you didn't get, what you should have gotten, and you're willing to accept them and become whole, then you start validating yourself. And that allows you to set boundaries and be react in an interdependent way versus a codependent way. It is so important for us to do that work, because if you have an injury, if you have a need that wasn't met, and that's generally the beginning, it's a trauma response, right?

Kristina Dennis (12:27):
To, to go and fall over everybody and worry about everything. It's, it's this fear and trying to control how everybody else feels so that you'll stay safe. Once you no longer need them to be who they, who you needed them to be. And you can take care of yourself, you're in the safest place that you can imagine, then it doesn't really matter. They might as well be telling you that you're purple. All right. That's how, how real really is. And that's the best place for people to be. I tell people when they hear something negative or somebody says something, that's not kind to them. There's usually something inside that statement that the person who's upset, still leaves. And we have to go back and heal that injury. It's like being, you know, not getting a bone set, correct. And somebody bumps up against it. And all of a sudden it's hurting again really badly. So once we're able to do that, go back and actually do the healing. Then you no longer need other people to validate you.

Damon Frank (13:29):
I love that. And you know, one of the things that, um, we, we always laugh about in the recovery community when we talk to people and, and I've had several friends who who've actually done this, right, who they pick toxic people that are all together in inappropriate places to work through issues in high charged moments like Thanksgiving, dinner, Christmas Eve, new year's night, right before the toast, right? The inappropriate amen, uh, in, in front of a group of people. And I, I think a lot of it too in recovery, isn't it like knowing the time and place and how to interact with people. It's that, that identification and knowing what is appropriate of yourself, how far you're willing to go to, let's say help some, a family member out or to how far you'll go emotionally, or put yourself into danger without being able to stop. Right. And knowing to pick the time and place isn't that really important?

Kristina Dennis (14:29):
So important. So when I work with people, we really take our time when we talk about each relationship, because sometimes there will not be healing until the other person. I mean, there'll be healing as far as the past, but there will not be an ability to resolve it in today. Or even in the future, you have to wait for that person to be ready before you kind of force that, you know, either a men's or that conversation. And it takes having discernment and having somebody who's not in this situation to help you figure out what's best, what's safest for you. What's the kindest thing for them. A lot of times, we don't even have to have those comp conversations once we've resolved the hurt that we have. And once we've resolved that we no longer have to behave in this way, you know, to keep ourselves safe. It no longer matters whether or not they acknowledge it. Most of us need to acknowledge our own pain before anybody else can acknowledge it. And once we do that, we don't need them to, and it makes an a lot easier.

Damon Frank (15:32):
Yeah. And you know, the, the, I, I think the, one of the thing, the hardest things to do with toxic people is sometimes the realization, the, just the awareness that I might have to walk away from this situation, right. It might be too bad. It might be, you know, and that might be people that are listening to this. Christina, I'd love for you to talk about with the danger zones, with drinking. Right, right. Or using drugs or whatever. Sometimes these people that were in our life when we were in active addiction, and now we're no longer in that we're in recovery. Um, it it's really not. We really just can't be around them. Right. It's just something we just can't do safely when

Kristina Dennis (16:13):
The, I don't know about you. But for me, when I drank everything was about drinking and all the interactions are about where I could drink, who I could drink with. In fact, I made decisions about not going places until I knew that, oh, there was, you know, alcohol going to be there. Oh, okay. Then I'll show up. And if you have a family member is also in that same boat, because usually when there's one, there's two or three, um, it's not safe for us in the beginning to be around that person. I was taught in the beginning, you check your motives. All right. If you go to the barber shop every day, you'll get a haircut eventually. And I heed that warning very serious. What, it's my motivation to hang out with this person? Are we celebrating somebody's birthday? Are we, you know, doing something that's gonna be good for the entire family, if it's, you know, meet 'em at the bar, because that's where they feel the most comfortable then yeah. You have to kind of walk away. I'm not saying you walk away from your family forever, but there is definitely times in our early recovery. And sometimes even in mid recovery where we are not at our best that we need not hang out with those people. Yeah.

Damon Frank (17:23):
You know, Christina far, you know, and one of the things that, you know, with codependency, that's tricky that I found is that when you start to kind of unwrap it, mm-hmm , it seems like a pit that is so deep, that has no bottom. Right. Right. And it's overwhelming. And I mean, you could have years of sobriety. Right. And you start to unwrap that stuff. And they always say that like, codependency is the black belt of recovery. Like when you're, when you start to dive into those issues. Um, and I think for a lot of people, there's a fear that, Hey, if I open that door, right. If I start to unravel this, there's gonna never be a bottom that I can get out of. But one of the things that I've learned, a lot of the talks that you've done, and some of the shows that we've done is that the bottom really comes when you start to take right. Action. Right. Not necessarily feel comfortable about it. Right. No, it's taking that right. Action.

Kristina Dennis (18:24):
It is. It is. It's gonna take time. We've learned the other way for long, the lack of boundaries, the okay, whatever you need from me. Oh, okay. I have to do this or they'll be mad at me. We've learned that way in order to cope with their life. So the first time we start saying no, the first time that we take the right action, the first time we put our needs, first, it feels like the world is ending. The one thing I can promise, use that that stops after a while, and guess what people survive, your know, you know, they absolutely do. And some of the people, when I first started setting boundaries, years ago, some of them left and I, there was a grieving period, but there was an end, just like when you go back and you start figuring out where you came up with these systems or these rules, you know, why did you come up with that idea? Probably because it was given to you by your parents who also have parents who did the same thing to them. There's an end to that grief too. It's really amazing. And I can promise people that if you're willing to do this kind of work, you end up feelings. So good about the life. Even the hard times, you learn so much from it that you can go out and give that to others. And you actually end up being kind of grateful for the experience and the hard road

Damon Frank (19:42):
I've had. Yeah. And I think, I think that's the thing because people think, you know, look, I I'm gonna be in the it's the matrix, it's a whole other, it'll never end. It's ever gonna end. It just keeps going and going and going. And, but through these series of right actions, what I've learned from you is through these series of right actions, it does change. It starts to shift. And what's funny is, and I, and I'd love for you to speak with this. You know, a as we conclude the show here, but the, the toxic people evaporate, you know, weird way, right? Oh yes. What what's that about? Like why all of a sudden, if right actions being taken, do these people, then just all of a sudden disappear.

Kristina Dennis (20:21):
I feel like cosmically, we've learned the lesson, you know, and that's what you, that's why I go through the pain. That's why you go through the work. You go through it. They start to realize these. People's start to realize that there's nothing there for them or in your life for them. They start to realize they don't have a place and you no longer need them. You no longer have to convert them to love you. You no longer have to convince anyone. And what we all find out after we do this work is the person we needed to convince of our lovability was us. And once you have that love, you can do anything in this world. You know, you can walk through pain, you can walk through joy. You can have relationships that you never thought were possible, but it starts and end with that. Loving

Damon Frank (21:07):
Yourself, Christina, Dennis, this has been an amazing show. And I, I have to tell people that if they're listening to this, one of the things that you've, you you say is that to start the process mm-hmm is sometimes just saying, no, like you just said, right. And you put together this really great free eCourse on recovered life that anybody can get for a hundred percent. It's a a hundred percent free that they can watch all about how to just start the process of saying no. Right. And I know you probably want to give a, a little shout out that there's hope there that when they start saying no things are gonna start changing

Kristina Dennis (21:41):
So much. So setting boundaries is something that we all need to talk about every week. All need to talk about our struggle with it, our struggles with it, our triumphs with it. And we need to normalize it. Being able to say no, which is, I think the, the, the setting a boundary, if you think about it, period is the key to having the life you want. You have to say no so that you can say yes to the right things. People have to be able to hear no and respect it. And if they don't, then they weren't the right people. So it's important that everybody take that course, get some of the language, start thinking about this, do some inventories. There's a free call at the end of it. I'd love to talk to anybody who has a struggle with starting this process. I'd be happy to get on the phone, to do and help you start seeing that this really is the only way to live.

Damon Frank (22:34):
Christina, Dennis, thanks so much for coming on the show today.

Kristina Dennis (22:36):
Thank you for having me

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