The Recovered Life Show

Edward Tilton:
Wouldn't it be great. If your dad had been able to talk to you about these emotions, every guy nods their head, every bag, every guy's like I wish my dad would have, or I wish my grandfather would have, or wish men in my life would have told me it's okay to be anxious. It's okay. It's okay. Not to know the answer, right? Your valued for who you are and not what you do.

Closing Message:
You're listening to the recovered life show. The show that helps people in recovery live their best recovered lives. And here is your host Damon, Frank,

Damon Frank:
Welcome back to the recovery life show. I'd like to welcome Edward tilt to the show. Edward is the COO of begin again, Institute that provides heart centered trauma focused treatment for individuals struggling with intimacy disorders and sexual addiction. Welcome to the show, Edward,

Edward Tilton:
Thanks for having me on Damon.

Damon Frank:
Thanks so much for coming on the show. You know, I was excited about this episode because we're going to talk about something that a lot of people don't really talk about in recovery and that's intimacy and you are an intimacy expert and, you know, working with your great company begin to get an Institute. That's what you really focus on, you know, and I think I first wanted to kind of ask you this question, you know, what is intimacy and you know, what function does it play in your life?

Edward Tilton:
Yeah, so, ah, so there's, there's a, I guess, I guess the easiest way of describing intimacy, um, is, is really about being able to being able to have a certain skillset, to develop a relational understanding of both yourself as it relates to another person, um, that offers authenticity safety and ultimately growth. You know, so oftentimes I think we forget just with technology and the fast pace, um, that we share in life that the humans are community, community creatures. You know, we, we, we need as much as we often have to say, you know, I don't necessarily want to do social things or maybe I have anxiety in social settings, you know, we, we need connection. Um, and so intimacy is really the foundational aspect of, of community. So yeah, so that's, so that's like the, the basic piece, the reason why, you know, intimacy is so important is that growth aspect, you know, it's, it's really about being, being able to have a, a reflective understanding of, of people's experiences and people's successes, um, because our lives are not long enough to make all the, all the mistakes that the world has to offer. So we need to be able to have a true intimacy in our relationships to be able to talk about what our hopes, what are our goals, um, what do we want our future to look like? And ultimately, how do we have a valid, how do we have validated knowledge of how to get there?

Damon Frank:
I think you, you know, you mentioned something that a lot of people do talk about in recovery, which is relationships and relationships tend to be assigned, you know, of people that are struggling with addiction, um, when they're actively using, or even after they're sober relationships can really be a struggle sometimes, you know, um, the, the ups and downs of relationships and the emotions that are attached to them, you know, in your own experience, I know that you're in recovery and that you, you know, have been down your own path, you know, what are some of the signs that people might see? You know, they're sober, they're doing the thing, but their relationships just aren't quite there is the problem intimacy usually, is that usually what's going on? Is it the inability to really connect deeply with?

Edward Tilton:
Yeah, so, so I think it's, so I think it's first important to, to say, um, you know, intimacy is, is the foundation for the relationship, but, you know, when we start talking about intimacy disorders, I believe in, I don't know if this is controversial, but I believe that all addictions are intimacy disorders, right? So it's, it's the idea that I would much rather bond with ex than with other people, you know, so insert whatever your, your vices with act. So I'd much rather bond with alcohol, or I'd much rather bond with opiates, or I'd much rather bond with, with gambling and addiction and in those types of aspects, um, than with, uh, with other people, you know, and this is, you know, when we start looking at the process of, of where intimacy fits into recovery at first liked to, I first liked to tell people to think of intimacy as, as the phrase of, into me. I see. You know, so what are some self-reflective aspects of recovery that we need to do to really start to understand how to better connect with people? Because people won't be able to connect with us unless we're connecting with ourselves first, if we're not,

Damon Frank:
Is that, is that where people see this first, Edward, is it, is it in the connections with people? The inability, because like, when I think about intimacy, look, I think you tapped on something that was really important at the very beginning, which is addiction, is this focus on things that aren't intimacy, right? It's not like, how do we connect with people it's really trying to escape from that right. Into a people place or thing that isn't really real most of the time. Right. It's just giving us this sensation that, that, that we're okay at that, at that moment. Is it, is it that you feel, do you feel that people that suffer, suffer from addiction or are scared of that, especially when they first get sober, because maybe the thought is, Hey, I'm sober. You know what I mean? And I do have some relationships, but I'm afraid to really go deeper on those relationships because there is the unknown, the unknown is there.

Edward Tilton:
Absolutely. I mean, when, when you're looking at so a common, so a common thought that I had was if you knew me, you wouldn't like me, you wouldn't love me. And if you love me and you knew me for who I really was, you're probably more screwed up than I am. And I probably shouldn't trust January. So when we get sober, a lot of us, a lot of our, our work is, is really being able to release that narrative, right, cut that narrative out of, of the tape that plays in our head, right? And so that's where, you know, inventory and, and really being able to do, you know, self-reflection, um, and honesty is going to be able to provide us with a community that will support our, our distrust and fear of, of others, right? Our addiction while, while complicated in a lot of aspects and very dangerous to, to ourselves.

Edward Tilton:
And our loved ones is, is pretty simple. You know, it's, it's very transactional. So a lot of times when we get into recovery, we're looking for very transactional relationships, you know, and when we actually start getting people that don't want just a transactional relationship where they want to continue to get us, uh, get to know us in a way where they're asking about, you know, our belief system and, you know, what are our core values and, you know, but, but more importantly, like just what makes you happy? You know? Um, and, and I would go as far as to say that this is, this is something that we get the beauty, uh, to engage in, in the recovery community. This is something that the, the whole world is, is suffering with, right? We've, we've established a, a collective understanding of dissociation, even how we exchange with each other, you know, do you go to you go to a gathering with people?

Edward Tilton:
And the first thing they ask you is how are you doing? And there's two responses that work it's good, or okay. Right. We don't actually want to hear about, you know, I've actually been feeling really abandoned lately. Right. Um, and then the second thing that we typically will ask each others, specifically, men is we'll ask, well, what do you do for work? You know, what's your employment, right? And, and all of these things are, are oftentimes just really segmenting or creating opportunities for disconnections that we buy into. And we cultivate at an unhealthy level, right? So many of us get into recovery and we become workaholics, right. We become, we become obsessed with the, with the quick money through gambling or through, you know, opportunities of, of things that might not necessarily be fully legal. Um, you know, but, but we, we believe that it's going to provide us with status and acceptance in the community.

Damon Frank:
So I like what you were saying about transactional and, you know, if anybody has been listening to this has been in a 12 step recovery group, um, you know, I think when people first come in as newcomers to that group, the first thing that people say typically is what do you, why are you doing this? Why are you being nice to me? Why are you helping me? What do you want from me? Right. And when the answer is, I don't really want anything from you. Um, people feel very uncomfortable with that. So you're right. So many of these, so many relationships are transactional in nature, but then to go deeper, right? With the, with those relationships and truly express how you really feel. I think, you know, a lot of people in recovery are intimidated by that. And, you know, the ability to kind of just go deeper a little bit. How did you get into this Edward? I mean, you know, obviously you have your own recovery journey, but why the answer is that, like, what, what, what about this is fascinating for you and why did you kind of gravitate towards this area?

Edward Tilton:
Yeah, I mean, th the goal was, was not to, to work in treatment at all. Um, you know, I, through, through a certain, uh, through a certain membership that I'm affiliated with, somebody said, Hey, you should apply for this job with the state of Colorado. I, um, you know, I started working for the state of Colorado and I actually, uh, got, I actually got placed on a task force with the FBI. Uh, it was called the innocence lost task force, and we were, we were helping victims of sex trafficking, you know, create a life for themselves of a different manner. And, you know, I kept reading about, um, this whole process and I kept, and it's one of these things in Colorado. We're known for a lot of things, but sex trafficking was not one of them that I thought of. Um, and then once I saw how prevalent and how bad it was, the next question I had was, well, why is there this, why is there this demand, like what, what is going on?

Edward Tilton:
And so I started to go down, um, I started to go really kind of dive into the rabbit hole, you know, that was intimacy disorders was sex. Addiction was, um, you know, was, was, was really this, this issue. Um, and then I got an opportunity after leaving the, the state and this, this, this post, or this position to work with a 90 day, um, men specific, uh, chem sex program, which really related to a lot of what I, what I saw in the rooms, you know, it was a lot of, you know, guys that were really struggling with substances. And then when they would be using that, their, their behavior sexually would increase. And then when they would get sober, they wouldn't necessarily be having conversations of how do you have sex sober? What is it like to date sober? You know, so a lot of it was very transactional, right?

Edward Tilton:
We were, we were taking the aspects of relationships in recovery, but we were only had a model for relationships in addiction, and we weren't evolving past that. Right. And so, you know, guys were going out in, in large numbers because of this, this really fused disorder. Um, and then, uh, worked for that program for about three years and then had the opportunity to work with, with begin again, Institute and really had an opportunity to, to enact a treatment. And, and what I believe is part of the solution for guys that are really struggling in this way, you know, that they, they might not have the ability to go away for 60 or 90 days. Um, but almost all of them have the ability to go away for two weeks.

Damon Frank:
Yeah. And I think you were, you were talking about gay men, right? Like, and I think that this is just an issue that guys really don't want to talk about. Right. Like they don't, but it seems to be the key, you know, at recovered life, it's really about living your best recovered life. That's why we do this in the show, ultimately is to give people insight about how they can live their best recovered, life tools, tips, things like that. And really it comes down to this openness and intimacy and the ability to be vulnerable and to trust. I mean, I know that most guys in general, don't like to trust people. That's just not something that they, they want some sort of leverage over the situation because they don't want to feel vulnerable in any sense. Um, and do, do you feel that this is a common thing with people in addiction that, that have intimacy issues come to you? They just really just can't, they just can't go there. And I guess the question is why, why can't they go there? What what's really preventing, uh, men specifically, um, from able to have deeper relationships, why is it so scary for them?

Edward Tilton:
So this is, uh, so this will be my little soap box that I get on, but, uh, I believe that, you know, and granted, this is, this is my perspective as a, you know, a white, hetero male. So I don't want to discount any other perspectives or, or not be inclusive of others. But, um, from, from my experience, I believe that a lot of masculine culture, um, is, is rooted in an emotional dyslexia. You know, I believe that we're raised to, to, when we're raised to be dominant, we're raised to be stoic. Um, we're raised to not cry and to, you know, win at all costs. Um, we're, we're only really allowed to show true emotions in, in certain settings. You know, we're only allowed to show emotions if we're playing sports, we're only allowed to show emotions at funerals. Um, and outside of that, it's, it's really discouraged.

Edward Tilton:
And, you know, these are, I worked with a gentleman named Dan Griffin, uh, who wrote a man's way through the 12 steps, uh, for, for a while. And, you know, he talks about this thing called the man rules. And so a lot of the man rules are really rooted in this idea that if you're not abiding by these rules, you don't have safety. You, you know, you don't have the, the nod of the group, so to speak. And so when, when we're talking about like, how do you get there for a lot of guys, we're asking them to be unsafe. And so this is, this is the other piece is for a lot of men that are going to treatment that are in the rooms that are really struggling to make that shift. We have to start seeing resistance as the first form of engagement with men, with working with men specifically, um, to develop intimacy. You know, we have to see that I'm, I'm resisting what you're asking me to do, because I understand what you're asking. So it's, it's not that we don't know what you're trying to get us to do. It's that we know enough to say that that's unsafe.

Damon Frank:
No, I, I know that, um, pretty much any guy who has entered into a 12 step program has always told, Hey, go to men's only meetings. Right? Right. They're always told that by people who have great sobriety, like, Hey, you, most of the means you go to, or a chunk of them should all be centered around other guys. And, you know, as being somebody who's sober, long-term, I look at the growth that I've had in different areas. And usually it came from those groups or something, a mastermind or something. Yeah. You know, we have, uh, I, you know, I'm a part of the group, uh, called old school and shout out to anybody who's listening. That's a member of that group. And, you know, most people have over 20 years of sobriety, they're very small knit group. But something that I've found is that if one person can go a little deeper and really be honest, what happens is it's like, it's, it's like, uh, a chisel in a way, a wedge.

Damon Frank:
Once it, once it cuts into that, you start to see, other guys will say, well, yeah, I kind of feel like that. And this is my experience. And then one after the other, and I find that the dynamic of, Hey, I'm always going to be able to solve things as a guy. Um, don't let them see you, sweat. I'm always in control, really fades away. And the people who still stay like that are intimidated and leave is what I find. They, they shut off really quickly. You know, they might talk a good game, but like, no, I really want to go deeper and talk about these kinds of things. But really at the end of the day, they don't, and it is possible, right. It is, is basically what I'm saying. Cause I've experienced it myself in, in these grips.

Edward Tilton:
Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's a win as men. We're only as vulnerable as the least vulnerable guy in the room. Right. And so what you're saying is just so important where when, when one of the guys will, we'll take one step deeper, right? And we call this the surface to depth approach, right? When, when people stop talking about what they do for a living and they stop talking about sports and they stopped talking about vacations, but they really start talking about like, you know, maybe raising children or having a legacy or, or really being part of a community and being seen in, in as, as a person, not what we do or what we provide, but as a person, um, it, it does something to our brain. And this is really important because it, it gives a permission to disclose and to be part of something that culturally we're told not to.

Edward Tilton:
Right. And so this is something, um, if you want to kind of check it out, it's called mirror neurons. And so mirror neurons work in, in two different ways, right? So they work in a verbal and a nonverbal way, right? So the nonverbal ways is Damon, you, you yawn, I'm going to yawn, right? It's, it's your brain looking at somebody else and going, Hey, you, you probably need a little bit more oxygen to, you should gone. Um, it also works in a, in a verbal setting, right? So as we're repeating things back to each other, it allows us to then start to disclose in a different way, which is why so many people will leave group or they'll leave a meeting and they'll go it's, it's not, oftentimes it's not the, the thing that was said, but how it was said in the manner, it was shared the way that people reflected it back to our, to ourselves, because what they're doing is they're, they're saying in our culture, you are allowed to be afraid. You are allowed to feel abandoned and we will, we will hold that aspect for you. We will support you. And you are not in the fight alone.

Damon Frank:
And trauma has a lot to do with this, right? Like we'd mentioned that earlier on, because look, none of this is coincidental that people that have addiction issues, um, also have intimacy issues because they were probably raised by people with addiction and intimacy issues. Right. And I, and I think, I mean, would you find that most of the people that, you know, an overwhelming amount of people that I have met, uh, that have addiction issues came from a home that had these addiction issues or something similar, right. And the whole key behind that, like in a home that has addiction issues, you learn. One of the things that you learned very quick is not to really tell the truth about how you feel, right. And so, as you go through and addiction plays its role, and you get to a place the time that you decide, Hey, I'm going to recover.

Damon Frank:
If you're lucky enough to get there, um, this, everything inside you, especially as a guy screams, Hey, don't do that. Right. That's just in your talking to neurology. Like, can, can you dive into that a little bit? Because, because everything, if somebody's listening to this right now and they're thinking, man, this might be an issue for me. Like I need to work on this a little bit and focus on this, but everything inside them says, don't do that. You're going to get you're physically going to get her. Right. Cause like, I know people who, you know, if you come from abuse, um, that's physical, that's linked that emotional, Hey, I was honest with the way I feel and that caused a physical ramification.

Edward Tilton:
Well, and that's, that's the piece, you know, that's, that's one of the pieces that I would just say is it can't be discounted is, is the physical response, you know, to, to, to a traumatic trigger. Right. And, and so there, there's a couple of things, um, you know, for me, I would say it's always important to, to kind of check the intentions of, of a relationship. So if you're the person that's, so if you're the person that's listening and saying, Hey, do I, do I struggle with intimacy? Um, the, the answer is probably yes. Um, you know, if you're, if you're having that, that question going through your head, the next piece though, is to really understand, like intimacy is really on an intimacy disorders are really on a spectrum. Right. And so, you know, on the one hand, we're looking at a lot of probably secrets that we're keeping or ways that we're keeping people at arm's distance, you know, at, at the complete opposite end, um, you know, the spectrum, we're, we're talking more along the lines of, of sex addiction, where our, our drug of choice is, is dopamine that's released through, through sex or, or, or sexual behaviors.

Edward Tilton:
Right. And so the thing that I would challenge any man, um, or, or woman, uh, that's listening to this, this is really check your intentions around the relationships. Are they starting to mimic the ways that we saw our relationship to our drug, our, or our relationship in our addiction, right. Is it starting to become just transactional? Right. Am I getting on a dating site just because I want to hook up. Right. And also starting to know, or if we're going to be successful, you got to have a community that, that that's got your back. Right. Cause I know so many guys that have gotten into a relationship that was a lot of those, a lot of toxicity, they got out of a relationship and they dated the exact same person just with a different name. Right. And, you know, so it's like, you're sharing looks a lot, like you're, Ashley looks a lot, like your Michelle looks a lot like your, you know, Tabitha. Right. And so, so what our brain is actually doing is it's, it's trying to resolve, you know, a, it could be trauma repetition. It could be, you know, this recreation of a relationship that we're trying to, you know, to conquer, so to speak. Um,

Damon Frank:
Do we seek that out too? Like, so with people, with intimacy issues, do they seek out people who they really, at the end of the day, there's not really going to be a possibility of a relationship with it's already built in and inherent in the dynamic of that. How does, how does that

Edward Tilton:
Yeah. It, you know, when you talk about things like co-dependency right. Uh, everybody has one, one interpretation and codependency. The other is, is really, my wound recognizes your wound itself. Um, and, and we like each other, my inner child likes your and your child. Um, typically for the similar wounds. Right. What I would say to this is it has to be something because I see time and time again, guys getting in, it's like, they've got a magnet. Right. And so w what I would say is, is this, the physical responses to fear often mimic the physical responses to infatuation, right? So oftentimes guys are looking across the room and their heart is racing and their, and their palms are sweaty, and they're getting really excited and they're going, it feels like time stood still, you talk to a survivor of trauma, and they'll tell you that almost the exact same thing,

Damon Frank:
Let's see, boxers will say, like, boxers will say, it's like, Aw, man. It's like, it took forever to get to that round. Right. But it was only a minute or whatever. So, yeah. Abs absolutely. And you know, you see this a lot in, in, in recovery circles, when you say like a magnet, you know, we always said that people in recovery have broken pickers. Right? Like they will pick the absolute worst case scenario for them. Right. They'll pick it every time. Right. But really the pickers number. And that's how the picker has been designed to,

Edward Tilton:
I think that's the key, that's the key early childhood wounding. Right. And so when we talk about early childhood wounding, less than 5% of the guys who come to our program, actually identify what we call big T traumas. Right? So, you know, nine 11 war, natural disasters, terrorism, things like that, the rest of the guys that come through. So we're talking 95% of these guys have some what we would call little T trauma or what we call vacancy and violation wounds. Right. So I got consistently bullied because I was the last guy in my, in my class to, to hit puberty. Um, you know, I had a, I had a, an older brother that constantly picked on, you know, so it can be bullying. And there's guys, this is where the, this is where the, the culture of masculinity really comes into play. We're often told that's what made you a man. So when we tease apart, some of these traumatic events, I have the narrative of that's what made me be a man combo with, we got to talk about this. So my narrative to myself is if I start disclosing these things, I'm not a man. Right. I'm actually, I I'm, I'm betraying the culture that I'm supposed to be affiliated with.

Damon Frank:
Right. And so I totally see that, you know, and Edward, I mean, I'm telling you right now, there are people that are listening to this, especially guys who are listening to this and said, man, this is just, this is just a lot, man. This is just that, you know, and I've always picked this way. I'm always going to be like this. And maybe, you know, people are listening to this. I don't want to be like this. I feel like this is an issue. Is there hope here? Like, literally, because I know a lot of people would say, well, this fan, that's just the way I am. I've been sober years, decades, whatever. This is just, this is just the way that I am. This is who I am and the core, and it's not really going to change. Maybe it will get a little bit better, but from what I'm hearing from you is there's hope to make really drastic change and really have really deep intimacy in your life.

Edward Tilton:
Well, and you know, that, it's absolutely true. I mean, a lot of what we're seeing, I mean, I would just say we, we gotta do better, you know, um, on the, on the spectrum, you know, of intimacy disorders in men that are struggling with intimacy a hundred percent of the time, anytime I ask any of our guys in our groups or our intensives, you know, or our clinical director asks the question of like, wouldn't it be great if your dad had been able to talk to you about these emotions? Every guy nods their head, everybody, every guy's like, I wish my dad would have, or I wish my grandfather would have, or I wish men in my life would have told me it's okay to be anxious. It's okay. It's okay. Not to know the answer, right? Your valued for who you are and not what you do. Um, you know, so many of our, so many of the guys that come into the program have these very distorted views of like, we have to have so many sexual partners to be a man. We have to have, we have to make so much money. We have to so much influence or power.

Edward Tilton:
And if you're not these things, then you're not a man. And it's just, it's just not true. And what we're starting to see, and this is, this is the next level. This is the next generation. You know, I grew up in, in what I would say I was the, I was an immigrant to the internet, right? So I grew up part of my life. I didn't have the internet and part of my life, I was very much in the internet. Um, the guys that we're seeing now are natives to the internet, the amount of information that they're getting. And I use this, like I use this specifically, the information that's available for men to understand, uh, about sex or relationships or masculinity in an unhealthy way is really vast. And it's, but there's no, there's no verification of knowledge. So a lot of guys are typing in sex and they're getting crazy amounts of, of material, but there's nobody that's actually walking them through and saying, Hey, I hate to tell you this. But pornography is not real. Right. That's that's the S you know, it was, it was a tough lesson for me to learn, but it was the same lesson that I had to learn when I found out that WWE and the NWL weren't real wrestling, you know, but it had to happen. And we're, we're just at this age that like, if we're not doing it in, in our generation, the next generation, the generation that follows is, is really being left on an island.

Damon Frank:
Edward, this has been a really great show, a topic that people are afraid of, quite honest, honestly, you know, intimacy, men addiction. Um, thank you so much for coming on today. If people want to know more about you, how do they find out more about what you're doing at beginning?

Edward Tilton:
Yeah. I mean, you can find us at begin again, institute.com. We don't take everybody. You know, we, we really work with a specific population, but we do want to always see ourselves as a resource. So if you're not a right fit for us, um, we love to connect people with sex addiction therapists in your community, or trauma-focused therapists in your community as well. So it's a great resource.

Damon Frank:
We also have a full listing on, uh, the beginning again, Institute and Edward Tilton unrecovered life. So you can also find out more about him there as well. Edward, thanks so much for coming on the show today.

Edward Tilton:
Thanks buddy.