The Recovered Life Show

(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai - Go Unlimited to remove this message) You're listening to The Recovered Life Show, the show that helps people in recovery live their best recovered lives.

And here is your host, Damon Frank.

And welcome back to The Recovered Life Show.

We're talking about rebuilding trust in relationships.

I'm pleased to introduce my guest, Carol Holland to the show.

Carol is a therapist at My Therapist.

How you doing, Carol?

I'm doing great.

Thank you for having me today.

I'm so great to have you on the show.

It's your first time on the show and interesting topic.

We have trust.

You know, so many times when people come into recovery or even if they've been sober for a long time, Carol, you know, the the issue is always trust.

There's always a trust issue, right?

Maybe they have a trust that they broke in.

They said, I'm not going to drink anymore.

And they kept drinking right with with a family, a loved one, a romantic partner.

So I'm so great.

I'm so glad to have you on the show to really dive into this about how what is the process of rebuilding the trust?

Do you want to just jump in real quick?

And you know, tell us a little bit about yourself and in this whole idea of trust and you know why that's important and that, you know, how how we go about starting to kind of rebuild that in the recovery process.

Yeah, absolutely.

So let me just tell you a little bit about me first.

I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.

I've been practicing for over 20 years and my specialty and my passion and my love is working with couples, all kinds of couples, but especially working with couples that have just gone through some sort of crisis, betrayal, the ones that are, you know, really, really struggling on the brink.

Those are the couples that I most love to work with.

Those are where I really excel.

And I feel like I could do my best work.

And I consider that like saving a family or saving not just a life, but we're saving an entire family, maybe an entire generation of that family by repairing and healing that relationship.

And I don't see there's not many relationships that I can see that are not repairable with the right amount of work.

So I put everything I have into working with these couples and teach them how to rebuild trust, recover from betrayal, get on the right path to healing and, you know, creating the kind of relationship that lasts a lifetime.

So I'm really excited about that.

I'm excited to be here to talk with you today about trust because without that foundation, right, it is a foundation.

It is the glue that keeps relationships together.

It is the foundation that relationships are built on.

So without that, really relationships start to wither away and they're open to all kinds of things.

Betrayals, you know, exits, I call them different ways to exit the relationship, to be emotionally disengaged.

You just can deteriorate the relationship over time in many different ways.

If we don't make sure that at the beginning we are working at trust and always every day, baby steps towards trust, not just big trust, but little trust also.

So I know there's people I'm so glad to have you on the show because your expertise in this and being able to really dive into this, you know, there's a whole thing called the immense process in recovery and anyone who I've ever worked with in recovery or myself, you go through this immense thing.

And a lot of it is about the first step of rebuilding relationships and making sure your side of the street is clean.

And, you know, people who are listening to this are in recovery for the most part, so they're listening to this and they're saying, yep, I'm familiar with that, but they're saying, Carol, Carol, Carol, you don't understand.

You said that everything is repairable, not my situation, not my saying there's no way like, and you know, I've seen this that people have come in to recovery and they feel that they have just blown it with people and there is no way they're ever going to be able to rebuild trust with anyone, forget about those people with anyone in their life.

But that's not the case, right?

It is not something that you can do.

It is.

And it's funny, as you're, as you're talking, I'm giggling a little because I wrote like a free PDF downloadable, you know, kind of guide on my website.

You can download it and it's called how to stop being stupid.

And to me, like, that's one of the things like, let's not be stupid here.

You, we can fix this.

Couples can repair relationships with each other, but also within their families, with their children, with their parents, with their friends, their simple steps.

To work towards rebuilding trust.

Now, I am not saying that every relationship is repairable.

Certainly there are, there are toxic relationships that can be damaging to both partners and you have to look at that and you have to evaluate each relationship individually, but most relationships where there's genuine effort and there is a desire to change on both parties, it can happen.

And we can work towards that.

It's not an easy process.

It's a long process.

It takes time, dedication, a lot of work, a lot of self-work, but it can be done.

If you have the dedication to do it and you have a guide, I think having a guide is super important, whether that's a peer mentor, a therapist, a close friend, supportive family, you know, you need someone there to encourage you, to build you up, to trust you and to support you.

I think that's super important in, in order to make it happen.

You can't do it in a bubble.

I believe that.

You know, one of the reasons I wanted to do this episode, I was excited to have you on is because, you know, I think if you have a lot of relationships in your life that are incomplete and that might just be a broken trust, right?

I think over time, even if you're, if, even if you're able to stay sober for a year or two or five years or 10 years, over time, that not being complete in, in, in, in, in some way, if, if you know what I'd be by that, like complete, like really an understanding that that leads to relapse because it really, I think incomplete relationships with people.

And I'm not just talking about romantic relationships, friendships, parents, all that kind of stuff.

Siblings see a lot with siblings, you know, in recovery, having this incompleteness is a killer in, in recovery.

And I, and it's over the years I've realized how important relationships are.

I didn't, you know, I'm a bit of a lone wolf, you know, Carol.

I get that.

I totally get that.

Yeah.

And, and I, one of the hardest things that I had to do, you know, probably about 20 years into my recovery is to say, you know, I think I need people.

I think I need a recovery.

I think I need to have people like, and you know, and I look at it like, yes.

I look at it like a character defect.

And I was like, why am I looking at this?

Like you can't, like, this is ridiculous.

Can we dive into this relationship?

They, because I think people don't understand the value of it.

They say, yeah, well, I broke these relationships off or whatever, but they don't understand the importance of relationships in their life.

And they're, and, and what it's in the value it is for them to stay sober long-term, help them stay sober.

Yeah.

When I think about that, what you're explaining here, like there, there are the lone wolves in the world, right?

And I'm kind of a lone wolf myself, but being a therapist, I'm kind of forced into relationships and I value, and I can appreciate relationships.

But for me, it's a lot of hard work.

Maintaining relationships is hard work for folks that are kind of lone wolves.

Right?

Like, yeah, I'm good kind of over here watching.

I don't necessarily have to be in that relationship.

And, and what I've come to learn is that that's all about vulnerability, safety, you know, being brave, being, being open to being hurt possibly.

Right.

And so it's really, really safe to be the lone wolf over here and not engage in relationships because no one can hurt me if I'm over here all by myself.

I take care of myself.

I don't have to rely on anyone.

My feelings are protected and I'm not really vulnerable to anybody else.

Their feelings, my own feelings, I kind of, all of it goes away.

I can, I can contain and regulate myself.

Right.

Does that, does that connect with you?

A hundred percent vulnerability.

Okay.

So this is now we're getting into, now we're getting part of it.

Right.

So like, let's get real, the vulnerability with relationships is the scary part, right?

Because well, what is going to happen?

If I open up, yeah, if I open up, what's going to happen?

I know.

Right.

It's really scary to think like, even on a very, very small level, just sharing a small thing, like I need you, right?

Like I really just need you right now.

Can you just really just be here for me?

Whatever that means for you, right?

That's a really vulnerable thing to say.

And almost my stomach kind of butterflies a little bit, even as I say it, you know, I'm like, Oh gosh, that is such a vulnerable thing to say, because what if they say, no, what if they reject you?

What if they say, you're not worthy, right?

You're not worthy of my time of my, you know, uh, attention of my love.

You're not worthy of it.

You're not good enough.

You're not trustworthy, right?

You've made mistakes.

You're, you're defective.

You're broken.

There's something wrong with you.

Gosh, all that, like, it just comes up, right?

And it's scary to put yourself out there and really be vulnerable and ask for what you need or open and honest with your feelings, especially if you've done wrong, right?

Especially if you know, I've done wrong, I've hurt people, I've betrayed people, especially if you've done those things, then it comes up even more for you, the fear of rejection.

You know, yes.

And it's interesting, like, I'm just starting to kind of see now, you know, and I'm in my fifties just to, you know, to, to clarify for anybody out there who's new, listening to the show.

But I, I'm realizing, like, I've always known that relationships and I've always had relationships with people that I understand it's like the important thing, but now I'm starting to kind of see, well, it's important in a different way than I thought of it.

It is much more of an internal game and I'm like, I'm a lone wolf.

Like what you described is like, I sometimes like being part of it, but I don't necessarily, I either want to be the leader of it, or I just want to be way, way on, I want to be able to leave.

That's control.

That's control, right?

I'm in control of my feelings.

If I'm leading this conversation, if I'm leading this discussion, then I know where it's going to go and I'm not going to let it steer in a direction that will make me vulnerable, right?

And if I just stay out of it completely, then I'm safe too.

It's all about safety, emotional safety and control because there's so much at risk, there's the sense of self that's at risk, right?

There's so much, I think we all walk around all of us with the negative thoughts about ourself.

We're not good enough.

We're too much.

We need too much.

We don't need enough.

We don't know how to communicate.

We don't know how to express ourselves.

We're, I mean, there's so many negative messages that we have in our head all the time.

And we're always looking for validation in our world from other people that that message is correct.

And those are the messages we're looking for.

And they're very, very subtle.

And I see your eyes get big right there.

You're like, oh my gosh, she's right.

I can see it, right?

We're looking in our world, in our relationships for validation that we're not good enough.

And that's sad.

It's so sad to go through life and always just want to validate that negativity, that, that little voice that's in your head telling you, you're not good enough.

You know, when I work with couples, I, I, what I first do is get them to share those negative thoughts.

And that's, that's vulnerable in itself to be able to share with someone, your partner, maybe the person that you think already thinks these things to open up to them and say, I just feel like I'm not good enough for you.

I feel like I'm never going to meet your needs.

I feel like no matter how hard I try, I can't get it right.

And why would you forgive me for the hurt that I've caused you?

I wouldn't forgive me, right?

To be able to say that is vulnerable.

And the fear is that they're going to say, you're right.

That's the fear that they're going to say, you're right.

You're not good enough.

You're right.

This isn't going to work.

You're right.

You've hurt me too much.

And so we just don't say it.

And then we just look for that validation by someone's behavior, maybe a look that they gave us something they said, perceived rejection.

And then we just calculate that in our mind.

See, I was right.

Why should I make myself vulnerable?

Look right there.

That's proof.

It's interesting.

I, I, I'm thinking back to this experience that I had.

I thought about this last week, this, this pops in my mind all the time.

When I think about trust, we're talking about trust.

I had a service commitment, uh, several years ago, about like eight years ago, I decided that I was going to go to a couple of 12 step meetings that were horrible, that were absolutely really bad.

And I'd had some time.

So I said, I'm going to go, I'm just going to sit there and be of service because these people don't have a lot of people who are coming into this particular meeting and it was like in a halfway house in a not so great location and I would go every Sunday when it was really hot in Los Angeles and I would sit there.

And so I got over a couple months, I got to know these guys and this one guy was like crying, it was a men's group meeting.

This guy was crying.

He was holding up these keys and he was like saying, you know, I am house sitting for somebody.

I'm going to be a house sitter.

And you know, Carol, I have to say like, I'm a little jaded.

Sometimes I'm saying to myself, it's like, okay, like not that big of a deal, right?

And then he goes on to share that, you know, he'd lived under a bridge for 15, 20 years.

He'd ripped everybody off in the world and he'd been sober for two years.

He would now had a job that they trusted him.

And the employer gave him the keys and said, we want you to watch everything that we have, our business, our house and everything.

And this guy was so moved by it.

It was such a big deal.

And I think back to that a lot, because I think a lot of times we don't appreciate the trust that people have in us.

You know, I know I have not always appreciated that.

I think it's a human condition.

We don't appreciate it, but about how really important it is.

And that once that trust is gone, it's a very, it's it is difficult sometimes to be able to get that back.

Yeah, you don't realize how important it is until you lose it.

Yeah.

And when you lose that trust, all of a sudden, just everything around you just crumbles and falls apart and it's hard to function.

When you have someone that trusts you and supports you and you have this this mutual respect for one another in a relationship, this deep, deep connection where you can truly be yourself, all of it, right?

The ugly parts and the amazing parts.

And this person still says, I choose you.

You're the one I want.

I want to be with you.

And I know everything there is to know about you, all the goods and all the ugly and all the things.

And know that this could go wrong one day.

Know we're going to make mistakes.

And I still choose you again and again.

Wow, like it's so powerful because then you go out into the world with this confidence and this resilience and this belief that you can be trusted, that you are a good person, that you are worthy.

Like it just fills you up when you can do that in a relationship and you go out into the world.

What are some of the things, Carol, that that that break trust in relationships?

I mean, there's some obvious ones in romantic relationships, right?

What are some of the ones?

What are some of the things that break trust in relationships?

I think it could be lots of different things.

It could be, you know, we break trust with our partner in many different ways.

Very, very small ways over time.

And then there are like the big ways, right?

It's like the big ways might be relapsing or, you know, disclosing that there's been drugs or alcohol that the partner didn't know about.

Infidelity is a big betrayal, big hurt.

There's also, you know, financial betrayal where maybe one partner has spent money that the other partner is not aware of and gotten them into some trouble.

So there's these big crisis type of betrayals.

And then there are smaller, you know, mistruths, lies, white lies.

You know, we all tell an untruth every once in a while.

We all keep information from our partner on occasion.

We try not to do that, but we're human beings.

We make mistakes.

And so I think of trust as a ladder.

And we start at the very bottom with no trust.

And then the first step is to, you know, basic things, small things, being consistent and, you know, being honest, sharing our feelings, not withholding what we think, but being open and honest and transparent with our partner and can we build on that trust?

And there are steps to that.

But in the beginning of relationships, if we're not honest about little things, simple things like what do we what kind of movies do we like to watch?

What kind of food do we like to eat?

What kind of person?

What kind of values do we have?

If we're just telling our partner what we think they want to hear in an effort to avoid conflict or for them to accept us or like us, we're still not being honest with them or ourselves.

And later on, that's going to build over time.

And they're not going to trust us with the big things.

You know what's interesting?

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think you said that in a very, very clear way.

And it's very easy to understand.

And I.

One of the things I think is complicated with romantic relationships, especially in recovery with trust, is many people will come into recovery, the recovery process, because something has broken.

They've reached a place where they've reached bottom.

Primarily, if there is like a husband, a wife, boyfriend or girlfriend that has involved a significant other.

They've helped them go into, they've basically given an ultimatum, right?

We've had a lot of interventionists on.

We have interventionists on almost every month, you know, to talk about that process.

And the complicated thing I find is that many people, Carol, like I've never met an alcoholic that doesn't have a really great codependent with them, so the codependent is as addicted to changing the alcoholic as the alcoholic is to drinking, right?

So it's a very weird dynamic.

And a lot of the times, the trust also on the other side with the person that's in recovery has been broken as well, because the person's not being honest about why they're they're addicted to helping.

They don't have good boundaries, right?

So there's not these good.

Can we talk about this whole boundary situation?

Because I think this is what leads to most of the unhappiness.

Yeah, I think you're right.

It's not just trust is not broken in one direction.

I find when couples come to me and there's been a betrayal of trust for whatever reason, when I dig a little deeper, the the betrayer typically also has problems trusting their partner, which contributed to this problem in the first place.

So we dig really deep.

So when couples come in, we hear their stories.

We we understand their pain that they're currently going through.

But we dig really, really deep.

We go back to childhood wounds, patterns, interactions with primary caregivers to understand where these patterns originated and then developed over time.

And usually they include poor boundaries, right?

They learn how to have poor boundaries in their early relationships with their primary caregivers, maybe with siblings, maybe with some, you know, early friendships.

And they learn how to have poor boundaries through these dysfunctional relationships with these primary people in their lives.

And they just continue to have those poor boundaries over and over and over again in their relationships.

You know, it's interesting, because if you've been sober for any period of time, you'll be at a party and, you know, a friend will come up and say, hey, I need to talk with you about Bob.

You know, Bob's drinking a lot and you know, and, you know, do you think he's an alcoholic?

Do you think, you know what?

Yeah.

Oh, boy.

And you always have the it's just like, just listen to get if people are listening to this, they'll say, well, that's never happened to me.

Wait, it will.

It'll happen.

You stay sober for any period of time.

You become the go to person with your non sober friends, right?

Of the of the gauge, you know?

And I can relate being a marriage therapist.

Try going to a party.

Right.

Yeah, of course.

And they're like, they'll always ask you a question.

And one of the one of the one of the questions after they ask, hey, do you think this person's an alcoholic?

Which I really can't answer, right?

Like, yeah, how do I answer that?

But I can say, well, these are the things that you look out for.

They'll always say next.

Hey, you know, how come I keep how come this is the fifth alcoholic that I've dated?

Right.

Like, you know what I mean?

Oh, my gosh.

Yes.

And I'm like, maybe it's you.

Right.

Common denominator, buddy.

Maybe the problem is it.

Yeah.

Maybe maybe it's you.

You know, and I think and the reason why I'm in it, the reason I'm saying this is that I've seen in working, especially with men in the recovery process, I've seen a lot of people come on and they will take on.

Maybe they have done something bad.

Right.

Betrayal financially, whatever.

Maybe they rip somebody off.

Like, there's all different levels of this trust.

Yes.

But then they put everything on them.

Well, then this was my responsibility, too.

And this was my fault.

And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Like, not all that.

Yes, you did what you did.

That was not good.

You need to make amends for that and make that right.

But you're not responsible for everything.

You're not responsible for everything in the world.

You're putting way too much on yourself.

Do you think, you know, and I'm going to ask you a question now.

Do you think that that is why sometimes people don't succeed at sobriety?

Because they take on too much responsibility.

They're responsible for their family.

They're responsible for their friends.

They want to make change everything.

They're kind of on this, you know, drive to, like, correct all of these dysfunctions because now it's like their eyes are open and they see it, right?

They didn't see it before.

Now they see it because they're doing the work and it's everywhere.

Right.

Dysfunction is everywhere.

And being a therapist, you see it everywhere.

But you try not.

You can't take it all on.

I would actually say, yes, but with a little caveat.

I think it's the people who stay sober that suffer with it in silence.

It's not that necessarily you're going out because one of the things that I realized was is that I was codependent, that I was taking on, that I had, you know, this wasn't until very later on in my recovery where I had successful businesses and I found myself doing way too much in business partnerships.

And then realizing that in some of the friendships that I had, I had expectations.

I would then overperform and then I would be resentful about it.

Right.

And not till later on, I figured out, it's like, wait, hold on for one second.

Like this is a me problem.

This isn't, this isn't a you problem.

Where did you learn that?

Where did you learn how to do that?

Who taught you suffering, suffering, right?

Like, you know, you suffering, but I think therapy, therapy was a big one for me.

You know, there was a big, you know, Carol, there's a big push now for mental health and recovery in the nineties or was it, no one had these conversations when I came in the night.

You know, I came in a lot of shame.

No one.

Yes.

And what, what made it, what made it worse is people would make, people would make these amends to people and they would hear you're a, you're a narcissist.

Yes.

Not realizing the other person, not really kind of understanding.

Correct.

They did dump it on you again.

Yes.

Correct.

And I, and I think part of what's changed role with me for a little bit with the relationship thing that I've seen in recovery is if somebody asked me, if somebody that I'm working with, asked me, even with accountability, say, look, I have these men's to make.

Sometimes I will say, you know what?

I don't think you should make that amends in a traditional way.

Because I think quite honestly, you're going to revictimize the person.

And the amends you need to make to this person is not to act like that.

You need to be like that again.

Okay.

Like, so if you really are serious, I don't care about your repairing the repairing for you yet.

They're, I'm not, you know, and I've told people repairing doesn't Trump, Trump, the hurt, right?

That you could cause, correct.

And we hear these Tik TOK stories all the time.

Like, you know, people come in, it's like, I'm 10 years sober now.

And I went into my employer and told them that I had cheated them.

And they gave me a hundred thousand dollars, patted me on the bat that I'm trying.

It doesn't always work like that.

Right?

Like, you know what I mean?

It's not always, it's not always a Tik TOK story.

People sometimes, sometimes people are not, they are not able to receive any kind of repair.

Forgiveness and repair is a two person process.

Right.

Right.

Can you talk about that a little bit?

Because I think so many people put this on themselves.

They go above and beyond, which they should.

I believe it's like, hey, if you wrong somebody, you, you need to, you need to make that right as much as you can make it right.

But there is a limit, right?

Like it is a two person process.

Yeah, I think, you know, it is a two person process because you can't get forgiveness by yourself.

I mean, you can self forgive, but you can't forgive in a relationship, whatever relationship on your own.

It's a two person process.

And the other person has to be willing to walk through that process with you to start with.

And then once they agree to that, there has to be, you know, accountability, atonement, obviously, all those things, a genuine apology and understanding for the damage that you've caused.

And then a promise to never do it again.

Right.

A promise to never make that same mistake again, if possible, we're human, it happens, but to not intentionally do that.

Now, what you're talking about here is like, if my making amends, Trump's somehow, right, your feelings, then that's not going to work.

Right.

Because the priority in healing is to care for the other person.

You're caring for them.

You're caring for their heart.

You're caring for their feelings and you're helping them heal.

And if what you're doing, which seems really important to you, and I'm sure it is to make those amends, the way that you're doing it is reopening that wound and, and kind of re-examining it.

And that's hurtful to the other person.

Then you're not really making amends.

What you're doing is a selfish act of trying to heal yourself.

Yes.

And I think, you know, selfishly,

it is about healing yourself to a certain degree in recovery because,

and I get what you're saying,

but I think what a lot of people too that are not,

don't have a drug and alcohol problem that,

that haven't recovered from that or living in recovery,

don't understand that our inability as people in recovery to

let go of things and to be able to,

look, if you wrong somebody, it's not good enough just to let go.

In my, in my opinion, it's not good enough.

You, you have to, you have to make like, you know, they say this a lot, you know, you can, you can get a horsey thief sober, but there's still a horsey, right?

So it's not good enough to just like, you, you have to not do that again.

Like you have to, that has to become a practice of your character, of who you are.

Right.

Right.

Right.

I don't think letting it go is the answer.

There's got to be a way, but if the way you want to is creating more harm, then your intention is, and you're doing anyway, knowing that that's for you, that's not for them.

But I see this a lot.

I know I have, I've had people in 12 step groups that kill themselves because they were never able to repair relationships.

Even to write a letter to the person who's passed to be able to say, Hey, I'm sorry I wronged you.

Right.

Like, I'm sorry that I did that.

Right.

Whether it was betrayal or whatever it was.

Right.

They were unable to say, and they were unable to let go.

So they were always living in the past.

And we always said, look, if you're living in the present and if you're living in the past, you're not, if you're living in the future in the past, you're not living in the present and all of recoveries in the present, all relapses are your either future tensing or past tensing.

You're not here and now here and now is where it all happens.

Right.