The Recovered Life Show

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[Speaker 1]
You're listening to the Recovered Life Show, the show that helps people in recovery live their best recovered lives. And here is your host, Damon Frank. And welcome back to the Recovered Life Show.

With the holidays among us and all of these family events, we know that setting healthy boundaries is really essential in our recovery. But how do you do it without feeling guilty, especially if you have these codependent tendencies? I'd like to welcome our guest.

Actually, welcome back to the show, I should say. But now, Dr. Rachel Hawkins. How are you doing, Dr. Rachel?

I'm great. Thank you for asking. How about yourself?

I am doing well. And congratulations on your doctorate. We're so glad to have you back.

People loved the last episode that we did together. And this is a this is a crunchy one. And I'm going to get into it here because I had a lot of people on TikTok.

They've been coming over literally since Thanksgiving. They come onto the TikTok lives. And they're like, I want to set boundaries, but I feel so guilty doing it.

I just feel too good. What do we do here? And why can you start, Rachel?

Why do we feel guilty for setting these boundaries? We feel guilty because the people that we're trying to set the boundaries with have set these expectations. And then, you know, family, you're supposed to be, you know, all with your family.

And you were raised to appreciate family. But most people have at least one dysfunctional family member. And sometimes when people are in recovery, some of those family members still use, they drink, they smoke.

And so then we're tempted to go and do the things that we were used to. So to be able to get away from those, we've got to do what's best for ourselves and our own immediate family, like our spouses and our children. And sometimes grandparents and uncles and aunts and brothers and sisters, they can all expect us to be okay.

Well, you know, you can't control me. If you don't want to drink, don't drink. Well, that's not as easy as it sounds.

Because, you know, just like with anything, any other addiction, like sugar or gambling or anything else, we can't just be like, okay, we're good. So if we are still having family members who are engaging in those activities, we have to be able to separate ourselves from them. And it's tough.

You know, we've been talking a lot about, you know, setting our own path and recovery, setting our own traditions and setting stuff. And a lot of people are saying, you know what? A lot of people that have alcoholism also have codependency in their family.

And they have other members that have been alcoholics. It's a generational thing for a lot of people. So a lot of people want to start something new, right?

They want to break that cycle. But this feeling of guilt is overwhelming sometimes. You know, it's like, what?

You're not going to go to Christmas Eve. We always do Christmas Eve. We always have ham, you know, on Christmas.

We always have. And in anything that goes outside of that box, there's a tremendous amount of guilt that comes in. How do you know when you look at this feeling of guilt, that sometimes can be overwhelming?

How do you know if this is like, this is a good feeling? Because sometimes I think you can feel guilty about stuff that maybe you did wrong. But other times you feel guilty.

It's just misplaced. How do you know if that feeling is misplaced, Rachel? So you just have to look about, you know, the guilt that I'm feeling.

So if I actually hurt someone with my emotions or my behaviors, then, you know, it's important to acknowledge that and to apologize in an appropriate way. And some people tend to over-apologize and then they get guilted by family members. Like, well, you know what you did in the past.

And so one thing that's important is to come to terms with the past, move on from that. And that's so hard. But whenever family members are putting these stipulations on you, then or maybe like, well, I'm the one that helped you get into rehab.

Or I'm the one that did this and that. Be like, I appreciate that. And I couldn't have done that part without you.

But at this point, I've got to do what's best for me. I'm internalizing. I am looking internally is what I mean by that.

And what is best for me? I love pros and cons lists. So what are the pros of setting these boundaries?

What are the cons of setting those boundaries? You know, maybe you could have start a new tradition and I'm going to have people over at my house. So that way I can set the boundaries.

So no alcohol, you know, on the premises. Or no, please don't smoke in my house. Or, you know, whatever that whatever your trigger is.

And if people don't want you to be a better version of yourself, then you may have to separate yourself from those people. And don't let anyone guilt into being like, you know what, that's not healthy. Well, that's what I need to do for me to be able to get through this holiday.

You know, I think a lot of, you know, I always say I've never met an alcoholic in recovery that we couldn't point to some sort of codependent there. Right. And, you know, I think codependency is misunderstood.

And, you know, codependency is aggressive. I think people think codependency is passive. They're just caring too much.

They're whatever. But I've realized that I've had some codependency patterns, you know, in the past that I was like, you know, this is not nice trying to make myself feel better or, you know, controlling people. This is not it.

This is not a good thing, you know. And I think a lot of people don't know they're codependent. And especially family members.

And I think older family members, too. A lot of times they've just been trying to save the person, save the person, save the person. Right.

And then now that they don't need to save the person, they're not really that apt to go into treatment. They were really, you know, to go into like an Al-Anon or see a therapist about why they have all these alcoholics and addicts in their lives. It's just a coincidence, you know.

And they seem baffled by it. And we've been talking a lot about meeting people where they're at. You're not going to be able to change something in a holiday thing.

What are some strategies that you give people so that they don't go over their skis? And it becomes, you know, you're setting boundaries, but you're not so militant about it. Because I think there is a way to set boundaries in a kind, loving way.

And not a, this is the way it's going to be for me. And I think a lot of people do that in recovery. It's like, now it's going to be like this.

So people who have trouble with sobriety, or, you know, and like my last podcast was about bipolar. And so, you know, people who are bipolar tend to have addictive personalities. And people, but that doesn't mean that if you have an addictive personality that you're bipolar.

It just means that, you know, you have a hard time saying no. And so back then when you were drinking or using drugs or whatever, that was your thing that helped you, you know, do the adulting stuff, you know, being around people. And now you don't have that.

So you've got to learn how to do that without a substance. And a lot of times that's very overwhelming. And so you may be able to, one, give yourself grace.

I mean, we're all doing the best we can with what we have, the knowledge that we have. And so also we have to be loving with our family members. Like, look, you know, I really appreciate all that you've done for me.

But some of these behaviors, like coming by my house unannounced, or calling me up in the middle of the night 50 times, you know, because I didn't answer. Those are things that, you know, they're overwhelming. What would you feel like if I were to do those things with you?

Most other family, oh, I'd be fine with that. They wouldn't. And so as far as the codependent thing, roles change when substance is removed.

So before I'm having to save, but you can't save anybody, but you have to save or try to fix your family member because that makes you feel good about yourself. That's your role. And now this person has done all the things and they've been sober for three months, six months, you know, whatever it is.

Then your role changes. So you're more of a supportive role and then letting them, like they did it. I mean, and good for them.

Congratulations on them being sober. And so you may have to just be like, okay, this is what I need from you now. Okay.

So, you know, a lot of times, Rachel, that it sounds good when we're trying to set boundaries, but what are the first practical steps? What is that step one that you take, Rachel? When you're looking to start boundaries and start creating these healthy boundaries.

Okay. So the first thing is, is we have to look internally. What's going to help us?

And what is going to meet the needs that we have? And it may be help to write them down. Definitely discussing them with the other members of your household.

If it's to do with the members of your household or maybe people that you're going to visit, you can just be like, okay, I need to have a conversation. And just first off, follow with, you know, like good things. Like I appreciate when you did this and I can see how hard you're working and all of those things.

And then you can, you know, but then this is what I need. So I kind of feel, you know, put in a feeling statement, overwhelmed, upset, guilted even. I feel guilty when I am not meeting your expectations or I feel like I'm not meeting your expectations.

And this is kind of what I need from you. And so whenever you voice those things, people don't want change. Change is not something that we accept well.

And so then they're going to have to start questioning themselves. Well, if you're getting better, that means I am going to have to change the way that I am. Then that makes me look bad.

And so when you're saying, look, I need you to fulfill a different role for me. So I don't need you up front in my face. Like maybe you, I needed you before.

Right now what I need is just to support someone who is listening to me and we listen to understand and not to respond. And so that's something that, you know, I've worked on through the years too, but we definitely have to put ourselves aside. We got to step back.

We got to let that person who's trying to set these new boundaries, let them just speak and then, you know, have a conversation with that. Now it's going to be hard. It's not something that I'm just like, okay, do this and do that.

And then we're good. It's more of, you're going to just have to remind them. I still love you.

I still want to be around you. But my life has changed so much for the better that I need you to just come alongside me. I don't need you to walk ahead of me.

I don't need you just to lag behind. I just need someone that's going to be there with me. I love that.

I love that. You know, when we come back from this quick little break, I want it, Rachel, I want to get into this whole idea of self-worth, right? Why we want to set that, not just because our life is better doing it and there might be less drama and, you know, the day-to-day, but the whole self-worth side of it, because ultimately recovery is about change, right?

It's about growing emotionally as well, more emotional intelligence. So when we get back from this quick break, we're going to dive into the self-worth aspect of it. And Dr. Rachel Dawkins is going to give us some amazing tips. Hold tight. We'll be right back. Are you feeling the holiday pressure?

It's no secret the holidays can be tough, but you don't have to go it alone. At Recovered Life, we've built a sober TikTok community where we come together to share our breakthroughs and breakdowns. Whether you're sober curious, just starting out or decades into sobriety, you'll find people who get it.

Find and follow us on TikTok. Just search Recovered Life. We post daily updates on our live schedule.

So you'll always know when to join the conversation. This season, let's stay connected, stay inspired, and most importantly, live your best Recovered Life. Follow us now on TikTok at Recovered Life.

You're listening to the Recovered Life Show, the show that helps people in recovery live their best recovered lives. And we're back and we're with Dr. Rachel Dawkins. We're talking about setting healthy boundaries without guilt, without guilt, which is the most amazing part of this.

And you know, right before the break, we were talking, Dr. Rachel, about this whole idea of self-worth. And I think we talk about this in recovery a lot. And I think it's a, it's a journey, right?

The self-discovery of self-worth. I think a lot of people come in to not only addiction recovery, but also mental health recovery, not understanding the value of themselves, the self-worth. Can you explain that a little bit and about, you know, about that journey and why that's important?

Well, whenever we do things that, you know, maybe we're coping from something. And so we don't know the healthy way because we've not been shown the healthy way. Or, you know, we've been kind of left on our own to figure it out.

So we are all worth good things. There's no human on this planet that doesn't deserve to be healthy. And so, yes, we've all done bad things, some worse than others.

However, when we start to get into that recovery, it's important that we surround ourselves with people who can see it. So progress is small, they're baby steps. So I start one day, I'm not going to be completely sober the next.

Maybe I went an hour without drinking. Let's, yes, you know, so people come in and they tell me, they're like, oh, I've been sober for a day. And I'm like, awesome.

You know, that is so great. And they're like, really? And I'm like, yes, I said, because you chose to go an hour and then 24 hours without doing the thing that you were doing.

You have broken a cycle. And so it's important for our supporters to be those cheerleaders because we're not going to feel good about ourselves on our own, honestly. If you have spent years or months, decades, whatever, using this substance or any kind of addictive stuff, you are going to feel bad.

Guilt is like the number one thing. Shame is also another big one. So and if we don't have people in our corner going, go you, then we may have to be our own supporter.

Yes. And so like, did I go a normally I am, let's say, drinking every hour. Did I go to today?

Yes. If I can go to, then I can go three, maybe, you know. And so once you get to the end of the day and you're like, oh, but I still drank, you know, but I didn't drink a 12 pack.

I drank three, you know. So let's not. One thing that I have learned also in some of the training that I've had is that just because like if you were running through town and you were running through a stop sign, just because you ran the one stop sign doesn't mean you're going to continue running all the stop signs in town.

You're going to be like, oh, I need to be more aware. You know, I need to be mindful of the next stop sign or stop light. And and so that's the same thing.

So like, OK, why did I do this? So I love the ABC model. So the antecedent, the behavioral and the consequence or reward for that.

And so, you know, what was I going through when I decided to have a drink? Was I not being mindful? Was I just sitting there bored?

OK, so then I need to keep my mind occupied. I need to be involved in this moment, be mindful of that. And then when you're able to do that, you praise yourself.

So and it's really hard, though, when you're moving out of addiction, not to get into another one with a reward. So, for instance, I went a whole day without drinking. So now I'm going to go and have some chocolate cake, you know.

So it's important what you put in that. So, for instance, if I went a whole day without drinking, maybe then I can reward myself with, I don't know, go into a movie or calling up my friend and say, hey, you want to come over or doing something that I never thought I would do because I couldn't. When I was drunk, I can't legally drink and drive.

And so, hey, maybe I can go for a drive. I've never been able to go for a drive because I've always driven to the store to get alcohol. So it's also important to avoid for a while the places where you used to get it.

So if you bought your alcohol in a grocery store, then maybe you need to go to a grocery store that doesn't have alcohol or a convenience store. Don't ever go into the liquor store to get cigarettes. You know, you have to at the beginning to be able to avoid those triggers.

If every time you went to your parents' house, you had a glass of wine, then, you know, just talk to your parents. I know that you love the wine. Is there any way that you could not drink the wine for an hour or two while I'm there?

This is tough for people. You know, last night on a TikTok group that we had, there was a lot of people that were struggling with spouses, family members, especially with the holidays because, you know, they're in this situation. And I said, you know, there are some times that you have to put, no matter how bad you might feel guilty about not attending, there's some times and, you know, I can tell you as an alcoholic, there's some things that are no-goes.

There are some boundaries that are kind of soft boundaries that you learn how to set. And then there's some very hard boundaries. Like for me, hard boundaries.

I'm not going to be, even though I have 31 years, I'm not going to lock myself in a situation that's really bad that I can't get out of that's going to make, even though I don't might not drink, it's not the place I need to be, right? So there's hard boundaries and there's soft boundaries. Can you talk a little bit about this?

Because I think this is important that I think there's this thinking of all or nothing, like drinking. Like for me, I can't drink, right? It is kind of an all or nothing that I cannot drink, right?

But boundaries are different. You learn how to set boundaries and what your boundaries are. It's more of an unfolding.

It's not all of a sudden, these are it. These were my only boundaries, right? And I think that happens in recovery.

We're a little too rigid a lot of the times and a little too, you know, it's a little too much for some people. So one thing that, you know, we can't expect other people to not drink or not to do these things. This is something we're doing for ourselves.

Even if your family has said, look, you need to stop drinking. You can't do it for them. You've got to do it for yourself.

And so like if your family is starting to bring out the beer or the wine or the hard liquor or whatever at Christmas time, cheers or even New Year's is really hard. But what you can do is, you know what? I'm going to go step outside.

I'm going to go to the store and get me a soda. Or I am going to go make a phone call or, you know, whatever it is, you know, whatever activity that takes you out of that room. Because people may be upset.

We always, you know, christen in the new year with a glass of champagne. Can't you just have a sip? No, no, I can't.

Yeah. I can't.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah.

[Speaker 1]
Well, we always talk about the three different types of people. You know, I always talk about the three different types of people because they'll ask me, you know, all the people come to me like, man, Damon, I don't think I'm going to be able to get through this. And I said, look, you're going to run into three different types of people.

You're going to run into the codependents that are going to overly go for it. Right. They're going to either be mad at you, a little bewildered.

They can't save you. They're trying to find their role. Right.

And then you're going to run into other people who are alcoholics that are really upset that they've got to look at their own alcoholism. Right. And addictions.

And they're really not that thrilled that you're not there because if you're not drinking, what does that mean for them? Right. And then you're also just going to run into the useful idiots that really are stupid or mean.

And they just they just want to hurt you. Right. And everybody in recovery, Rachel, at one point or another, is that I have run into all three of those, sometimes all in one room.

Right. Like, so you're going to run into those. You're going to run into those people.

And that is when I believe you need that firm boundary of like, this doesn't work for me. I have to leave, you know. Right.

It just doesn't work for me. Right. And you have to just like, I can't have the meeting at the at the local, you know, I don't know, we call we have a Casey Hall, but it's, you know, basically the local club downtown that, you know, where all the older people gather for, you know, a beer.

I can't do that. Even if I'm having a soda, you know, the designated driver thing that doesn't work. If you're going into a bar as a designated driver, it is super hard to be like, no, I think I'm just going to have a soda or I'm going to have a glass of water.

So, you know, definitely that hard boundary is no, I will not go into a place that serves their main their main source of income is serving alcohol. I even feel like going into a restaurant that like a bar and grill is even hard because, you know, they have the main bar there right in the center of the restaurant. So at first, you know, when you're at your weakest or at your newest point, it's important to that's that that's that my firm boundary.

But then over time, and I mean, not a couple months, like over some serious time, you may be able to go and eat at the local bar and grill. Um, as long as no one else at the table is drinking. And if that happens, like, you know, oh, I just thought I could just have a shot.

You know, I have to go. I mean, I mean, you know, in recovery, there's no place I can't go, Rachel. But but I do.

But there are places that if my intention is not right, I don't go there. I don't go into high risk situations. I don't go to places like I don't do that unless I have intention.

If I'm going to somebody's party or whatever, and I have wing people, even, you know, even I cheer about this a lot with with with boundaries that I would even tell employees that I've had at one point, you know, that I would bring them that they were not alcoholic. They were not addicts. They were social drinkers.

I take them to the business party when people bought shots. I'd say, you know, I don't drink, but Brian does. And, you know, and he loved it.

And I'd pay him to go. And he was my wingman. And I had decades of sobriety because I just didn't want to feel uncomfortable.

Right. I didn't want I didn't want. And that was a boundary for me.

He also knew my boundaries, too. And there was somebody there that knew me. There was somebody there that knew me, right?

That that could help me if if I was in trouble. So in conclusion here, I got to ask you, Rachel, what about all that? What about people that just keep overstepping your boundaries constantly?

You know, because this happens in recovery. You try, you try, you try. And they just beat you up constantly if you do that.

What's your advice to people that this is happening to? So just because we have, you know, we forgive people or we are trying in recovery ourselves doesn't mean we have to be around these people. So, you know, right now, for my own health, I am having to do this.

If we if there was a diabetic and they you know, they couldn't eat sugary stuff, we wouldn't push a piece of cake in their face. We would be like, oh, yeah, OK, I understand. I'm sorry.

I didn't realize. So why can't we do that with alcohol or, you know, tobacco or marijuana or whatever it is? You know, it's like, oh, I understand.

I had no idea, you know. So the same grace we would give somebody with a medical diagnosis, we need to give them with the mental health and substance diagnosis. And we also need to realize that, you know what?

I'm not perfect. I'm going to mess up. I may accidentally drink or, you know, maybe, you know, I'm going to be weak at a moment.

Don't go somewhere when you're depressed kind of thing. And so but you know what? That doesn't mean that I'm never going to be sober.

Absolutely. You know what, guys, there's a will, there's a way. And you might need to stay away from people for a period of time.

There are people that might not be healthy for you. And you can revisit that later when you have more tools and strategies. Guys, thank you so much, Rachel, for coming on today.

And congratulations on your doctorate. So exciting to see you over the years here. Achieve your goals.

Guys, Rachel is going to stay on with me for the after show segment for the Recovered Life Plus subscribers. And also those that are following us on TikTok as a special thing. We're going to dive into a little bit more about people who are, you know, professional doormats and can never set boundaries and stuff.

We're getting a little deeper, a little bit more crunchy when. So join us on Recovered Life TV or on TikTok on our team as a subscriber. Dr. Rachel, thank you so much for coming on today. No problem. Thank you.

[Speaker 2]
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